the bin ladins were flown out of the country, it says it right there, who cares about the technicality crap. it happened, there are a million sources that show it happened.
Richard Bennett
· 5 years ago
People fly out of the country all the time, matt, the question is whether there was anything improper about it. Moore says there was, but the facts say otherwise.
Do you believe people should be detained indefinitely just because of their name, religion, or skin color?
Mike
· 5 years ago
What the movie says is this:
"It turns out that the White House approved planes to pick up the bin Ladens and numerous other Saudis. At least six private jets and nearly two dozen commercial planes carried the Saudis and the bin Ladens out of the U.S. after September 13th. In all, 142 Saudis, including 24 members of the bin Laden family, were allowed to leave the country."
which is EXACTLY true, by the commission's report you cite. what is so hard to understand here ?
The film states clearly that these flights left after September 13 (the day the FAA began to slowly lift the ban on air traffic).
The film does not say anywhere that the flights took place during the grounding of flights...how is it possible that people keep thinking that ? It's so overtly explicit, I assume because Moore expected people would think he was implying it.
Richard Bennett
· 5 years ago
You're leaving out the part where Moore interviews Unger to have him say the things he can't say himself about the alledged Bush connection with Bin Laden (and therefore with 9/11).
If the flights weren't improper, why interview Unger?
John K.
· 5 years ago
You quoted a 9-11 commission staff statement.
The actual *report* is not due for another month, so you really are only quoting preliminary findings.
Obviously, for many travelers, Sept. 14 *or* 15 was the day in question, so the charge still basically holds: Saudis and the bin Ladens got preferential treatment. Spin all you want, Richard, but you can't contradict that basic point.
Oh, and the airspace around Washington D.C. was closed to private air travel for some time afterwards.
I notice no link from Moore's sight. Is the link broken, or are you just being "fair and balanced?"
Richard Bennett
· 5 years ago
I said it was a staff report, John. We all know that the commission hasn't issued its final report.
The fact is that the bin Ladens didn't leave the US until Sept. 20th, long after the airspace was fully opened. The flights on the 13th, 14th, and 15th were domestic.
Mike
· 5 years ago
And it still stands that the movie says nothing different from that "staff" report.
Richard Bennett
· 5 years ago
Actually, it does. The movie says the treatment afforded the bin Laden family members was improper, that they weren't properly screened, and that their flight from Tampa to Kentucky went overseas. The staff report contradicts all of these clams.
Now if Moore isn't saying the bin Ladens were given special treatment, why the tirade about the Carlyle Group? The answer, of course, is that Moore wants you to believe that President Bush was bought-off by the people who were responsible for 9/11, and I've seen him say as much on TV. The quote goes like this: "hey, if somebody gives me $1.4 billion, I'm going to give him special treatment too. Wouldn't you?"
So drop the bullshit.
Mike
· 5 years ago
"The movie says the treatment afforded the bin Laden family members was improper,"
which it was. only 30 of the 142 people were even interviewed.
"and that their flight from Tampa to Kentucky went overseas."
I did not see that or given that impression from seeing the movie, and not sure where you're getting that. Where are you getting that ?
Richard Bennett
· 5 years ago
There was nothing improper about the post-Sept. 11 Arab evacuations - they feared for their lives because "Bowling for Columbine" told them that Americans are violent racists.
Only 24 bin Ladens flew out of the US after Sept. 11, on the 20th, actually, and 22 of them were personally interviewed by the FBI. The other two were checked against the databases and weren't interesting.
The 142 people were the Saudi royals, all checked against the database, and 30 interviewed. It is just this kind of confusion that Moore capitalizes on. If he can fool you, what do you suppose he does to the average little college student?
Mike
· 5 years ago
Let's recap: The 142 people *include* the 24 bin Ladens. The US government arranged the flights, six of them, after the airspace was opened. Neither you (or I) know why ALL of the Saudi Royals left the country all at once. When (take a guess) was the last time every royal Saudi, and every bin Laden, left the US, all at once ? You seem to imply that them all leaving is just no big deal, happens all the time, nothing to see here.
Saudis funded Al Qaeda. Do you see that statement as wrong ?
So are you implying that if any one of those Saudi/bin Ladens were found to be in the databases, then off to Gitmo they would have gone ?
The bullshit is the inisitence that the facts in the movie don't match those in the staff report everyone is quoting. The real argument should rely on what is the definition of "improper" in this context. Moore makes no claims that he is fair, and he shouldn't because he's a filmmaker, and he has an opinion. As long as those opinions are separate from the facts in the film (which they weren't in Bowling) then it's just like every other documentary.
Richard Bennett
· 5 years ago
The Administration approved the Saudi plan to remove 142 members of the Royal family plus 24 members of the bin Laden family from the US on Sept. 20th, but they didn't arrange their flights or grant them any special treatment. The decision was made by Richard Clarke, and it went no higher than him.
The Saudis left because they feared for their safety, believing that Americans are the kind of violent racists we're protrayed as in "Bowling for Columbine." Michael Moore had more to do with their evacuation than George Bush did, actually.
But the real question is why you're so confused about the facts, Mike.
All Comments
Do you believe people should be detained indefinitely just because of their name, religion, or skin color?
"It turns out that the White House approved planes to pick up the bin Ladens and numerous other Saudis. At least six private jets and nearly two dozen commercial planes carried the Saudis and the bin Ladens out of the U.S. after September 13th. In all, 142 Saudis, including 24 members of the bin Laden family, were allowed to leave the country."
which is EXACTLY true, by the commission's report you cite. what is so hard to understand here ?
The film states clearly that these flights left after September 13 (the day the FAA began to slowly lift the ban on air traffic).
The film does not say anywhere that the flights took place during the grounding of flights...how is it possible that people keep thinking that ? It's so overtly explicit, I assume because Moore expected people would think he was implying it.
If the flights weren't improper, why interview Unger?
The actual *report* is not due for another month, so you really are only quoting preliminary findings.
Moreover, the use of the word "commercial" is misleading here, to say the least: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/09/12/natio...
Obviously, for many travelers, Sept. 14 *or* 15 was the day in question, so the charge still basically holds: Saudis and the bin Ladens got preferential treatment. Spin all you want, Richard, but you can't contradict that basic point.
Oh, and the airspace around Washington D.C. was closed to private air travel for some time afterwards.
I notice no link from Moore's sight. Is the link broken, or are you just being "fair and balanced?"
The fact is that the bin Ladens didn't leave the US until Sept. 20th, long after the airspace was fully opened. The flights on the 13th, 14th, and 15th were domestic.
Now if Moore isn't saying the bin Ladens were given special treatment, why the tirade about the Carlyle Group? The answer, of course, is that Moore wants you to believe that President Bush was bought-off by the people who were responsible for 9/11, and I've seen him say as much on TV. The quote goes like this: "hey, if somebody gives me $1.4 billion, I'm going to give him special treatment too. Wouldn't you?"
So drop the bullshit.
which it was. only 30 of the 142 people were even interviewed.
"and that their flight from Tampa to Kentucky went overseas."
I did not see that or given that impression from seeing the movie, and not sure where you're getting that. Where are you getting that ?
Only 24 bin Ladens flew out of the US after Sept. 11, on the 20th, actually, and 22 of them were personally interviewed by the FBI. The other two were checked against the databases and weren't interesting.
The 142 people were the Saudi royals, all checked against the database, and 30 interviewed. It is just this kind of confusion that Moore capitalizes on. If he can fool you, what do you suppose he does to the average little college student?
The 142 people *include* the 24 bin Ladens. The US government arranged the flights, six of them, after the airspace was opened. Neither you (or I) know why ALL of the Saudi Royals left the country all at once. When (take a guess) was the last time every royal Saudi, and every bin Laden, left the US, all at once ? You seem to imply that them all leaving is just no big deal, happens all the time, nothing to see here.
Saudis funded Al Qaeda. Do you see that statement as wrong ?
So are you implying that if any one of those Saudi/bin Ladens were found to be in the databases, then off to Gitmo they would have gone ?
The bullshit is the inisitence that the facts in the movie don't match those in the staff report everyone is quoting. The real argument should rely on what is the definition of "improper" in this context.
Moore makes no claims that he is fair, and he shouldn't because he's a filmmaker, and he has an opinion. As long as those opinions are separate from the facts in the film (which they weren't in Bowling) then it's just like every other documentary.
The Saudis left because they feared for their safety, believing that Americans are the kind of violent racists we're protrayed as in "Bowling for Columbine." Michael Moore had more to do with their evacuation than George Bush did, actually.
But the real question is why you're so confused about the facts, Mike.
Well. I suppose. If "Triumph of the Will" is a documentary, that is.
(Spinsanity went over this quite some time ago when Moore whined about it in a book. It's still a non-issue, and Moore's still full of it.)